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Post by Swoosh on Jun 15, 2007 10:55:36 GMT -5
Tori...
So put it up for adoption.
Joy...
This is a very unrealistic assumption. In most states, a woman can make the choice to have an abortion without the consent of the biological father. Heck, in most states, she can make the decision without the consent of her legal guardians, which I think is totally stupid and further promotes it as a highly irresponsible form of birth control.
I know very few women will respect my opinion, because, as a man, I will never have to makie the decision to go through the pain of childbirth, but I view it as this - if you view a fetus as a living thing (which it is, despite what Joy says, see below), then killing it is murder. Murder is wrong. However, legally, there are exceptions, one being self-defense. So if a fetus is going to kill its mother during childbirth, then killing it in self-defense is perfectly legal. Killing it in other circumstances, though, is not - it's merely murdering an innocent living thing for the mother's convenience, which is wrong.
Perfectly true, Joy. But fetuses ARE alive. They may not be fully HUMAN, but they are alive. The scientific definition for "alive" is "growing and developing" - fetuses match this definition to a tee, even in their earliest states.
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Post by TORI! (is so hyper it's scary) on Jun 15, 2007 20:01:30 GMT -5
Ok. Honey bunches of Oats, you gotta understand my point. A kid might get pregnant and freak out. They wouldn't look into adoption because they would think of it. They would be scared, have the baby abandon, or kill it. An abortion takes place BEFORE the baby develops. So if you'd rather have crazy junked up teenager REALLY kill the baby, fine.
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Post by Swoosh on Jun 15, 2007 22:02:57 GMT -5
Ok. Honey bunches of Oats, you gotta understand my point. A kid might get pregnant and freak out. They wouldn't look into adoption because they would think of it. They would be scared, have the baby abandon, or kill it. An abortion takes place BEFORE the baby develops. So if you'd rather have crazy junked up teenager REALLY kill the baby, fine. Tori, your argument is so ludicrous, I'm tempted not even to argue against it, but I'll try... Basically, your argument is made on the assumption that 'Well, uh, yeah, kids are gonna freak out when they have a kid and put it in a box and stab it", which makes zero sense. Sure, I kinda understand what you mean by "most kids won't think of adoption" - but the only reason for THAT is because abortion is so widespread. So the solution? Build a society where the courts decide if a circumstance merits an abortion, rather than the mother. That way, adoption becomes a more common and natural option.
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Post by tyler on Jun 15, 2007 22:34:13 GMT -5
^Sounds like a decent plan. But the court system is already overloaded with frivolity; most cases take YEARS to be decided, appealed, decided on again, appealed one more time, etc. I don't know if proper verdicts could be reached within 9 months, given our flawed system.
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Post by TORI! (is so hyper it's scary) on Jun 15, 2007 23:12:40 GMT -5
And Swoosh, if you watch the news, abandoning and killing of newborn babies because of teen mothers happens frequently.
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maria
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Post by maria on Jun 16, 2007 7:51:16 GMT -5
*prepares for a really bad hand crap* Ok. Honey bunches of Oats, you gotta understand my point. A kid might get pregnant and freak out. They wouldn't look into adoption because they would think of it. They would be scared, have the baby abandon, or kill it. An abortion takes place BEFORE the baby develops. So if you'd rather have crazy junked up teenager REALLY kill the baby, fine. Okay, first of all, just because a kid "freaks out" doesn't mean that they're going to kill the baby. If I was pregnant (I have no reason to be, don't worry) then I would REALLY freak out! Oh, I'd freak totally out! I'd freak so out that.... well you get the point. Anyway, I think that we should teach these "junked up teenagers" to have more responsibility! We live in a world where things are SO easy, and deciding your baby's life shouldn't be one of those things. If a crazy teenager decided to terminate her baby, that would be living in the moment (and that means making a decision based on how you feel at the exact moment and not thinking about the future) and living in the moment is in most cases, really irresponsible and wrong! SECOND of all... if this teenager DID kill their baby, they'd be sent to jail for it. Killing a child is a horrible thing and that person would pay the price. Plus, there are several options after having a baby that you werent ready for. There are godparents, adoption agencies, family, taking care of it yourself, lots of things! I'm going to assume you meant to put "CAN" instead of "CANT", because otherwise this statement makes no sense... But dude, no it can't. It's a friggin' artificially made zygote. Cells die off all the time. It's not murder, it's a cell. But like Swoosh said, a cell is alive! And just because it's "artificially made" doesn't mean it's not living! There are things called "surrogate mothers" and basically a couple decides to give the husband's sperm to a woman, and she is fertilized and has a baby for the couple. This happens if the couple really wants a child and the wife can't bear children for some reason. And besides those, there's artificial insemination, and that's when the doctor injects sperm into the mother for her to have a baby. Those sound like pretty "artificial" things, but they still produce humans and not robots. But that's harming your body, not the little zygote thingy inside your body. That's self-destruction, which in my opinion is a lot, lot, worse than deciding to terminate a tiny little cell. And you're actually right, I do have no right to tell you to stop being bullemic. It is your body. If you want to starve yourself, you have the right to. It would deeply hurt me, and I would do everything I could to make you stop, but I do not have the right to say "STOP THROWING UP". Joy, if I were anorexic and bullemic, I would want you to stop me. I wouldn't want you to make pouty faces and find creative ways to say "please". I'd want you to do anything you could to stop me! Believe me, in a time like that I really wouldn't care how much you "respected my choices for my body", because I'd be suffering for the rest of my life for that! The only valid reason you might have to not try to stop me as much is because you're afraid I'll get worse or something... but if you could snap your fingers and stop me from being anorexic and bullemic... would you? I certainly hope so, because I dont think I'd care 20 years later that you had "respect for my personally decisions about my body" *refers back to Swoosh's sex argument, even though he's disagreeing with me* And think about it, what if there were a hundrend thousand more people in this world? Do you KNOW how overpopulated we are already!? Everytime two people prepare to have sex, there's POTENTIAL for a baby. A fetus is the same thing, a POTENTIALLY human thing. By that logic, condoms and birth control are evil. (Teehee, Cat...) No. If the abortion didn't work, then they were meant to be born. But if you MADE THAT DECISION to kill that baby, if you thought about it for months and made that final decision to move on with your life before you knew you had to give birth to that child... how can you say that it's "meant to live". And by this logic you can argue that some aborted babies where supposed to have lives! I believed that the male spouse should have about as much as a say in the abortion than the mother. Well than you can't say that the pain of childbirth has anything to do with getting an abortion. Yes, an abortion is a hard decision to make. That's why the mother should think very hard if this is what she wants or not. And if she does regret it... "Forget regret, or life is yours to miss". There was a Supreme Court Case: Roe vs. Wade Basically this woman wanted abortion to be legal because she had an unplanned pregnancy. Like Tyler said, do you know how hard it is to go through the courts? And what's SIGNIFICANTLY harder is when you want to pass a bill to create a law! There's a quote: "There are two things you never want to see being made: sausages, and bills" Because it's SUCH a long process! But this woman, she went through ALL of that to legalize abortion! Eventually she did legalize abortion and she got rid of her baby... but guess what? She felt so bad later on that she tried to ILLEGALIZE abortion! ...But wouldn't you think that she had so much time to think about her abortion over all of the time it took to get that case to the Supreme Court? I think facing that issue every single day for several months would be enough time for her to make sure she's making the right decision. Exactly. If you know you won't take good care of the baby, then you shouldn't subject it to misery. It's your problem, so you don't really "deserve" (kind of a bad way to put it) to have a baby. So everyone with "junked up teen moms" deserves to be dead. They don't really get a life because they're life is SO limited by their parents. If my mom is a crack head (and plays a leprechaun...) then I MUST be destined to be a crack head too. People can say they're going to turn their life around, but they very rarely do. *cynical* If someone decides to really revamp their life, and they follow through, then again, power to ya'. But if you KNOW you're not going to take good care of the baby, ( AKA me. >.> *emotionally and physically abused her health project flour sack*) then a termination is the most responsible thing. Okay, first of all, you really can't compare a child to a flour sack . So once again you're supporting the idea that everyone is limited. Nobody can exceed what they're expected to do... and you might be right, but you know why? Because society encourages that! Society encourages people to have easy lives... So many people are irresponsible due to their conditions at home or what they think life is instead of knowing that they can do whatever they want if they really try. Maybe this baby is "fate"... did you ever consider that? Maybe getting pregnant was something you were meant to do. Maybe this baby will change your life. There is no way to decide what a person's fate is. I think it's wrong to bring a life into this world and take it out without having a second thought. WE ARE NOT GOD. *shrugs* It sounds selfish when you put it that way, but I wouldn't throw my hopes and dreams away for a rape baby. (if it's not a rape baby... yeah, that's pretty irresponsible, not gonna lie.) I used to believe that aborting rape babies was fine too, but I've changed my mind. My mom's cousin was raped on a date. She could've aborted that baby but she decided to have that baby. She had a baby boy named Gideon (named after a man in the bible). I can't imagine how happy she is. Sometimes you can make the most positive outcomes of a horrible situation. My cousin was RAPED. She could've aborted that baby and dealt with the fact that she was raped for the rest of her life... She could look back and feel so horrible about it, and eventaully feel bad that she had to take care of things that way. But my cousin didn't do that. Babies are precious. My cousin's baby gave her faith in God. With all of these varied situations with rape and regret, you have no right to decide what fate is. oh, and Tori, I don't know what kind of news you watch, but I don't see many of those things on there. I think in my lifetime I've seen a grand total of one. And that was Lacey Peterson's baby that wasn't even murdered the way that you're talking about.
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Post by Swoosh on Jun 16, 2007 10:07:32 GMT -5
And Swoosh, if you watch the news, abandoning and killing of newborn babies because of teen mothers happens frequently. Uhm... oh, and Tori, I don't know what kind of news you watch, but I don't see many of those things on there. I think in my lifetime I've seen a grand total of one. And that was Lacey Peterson's baby that wasn't even murdered the way that you're talking about. Ditto.
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Post by tyler on Jun 16, 2007 22:10:48 GMT -5
*prepares for a really bad hand crap* That sounds...messy.... But I agree with everything you said, and you said it well!
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maria
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Post by maria on Jun 16, 2007 23:29:47 GMT -5
oh yeah, one messy hand cramp thanks!
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maria
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Post by maria on Jul 14, 2007 2:10:00 GMT -5
21 week old baby holding a doctor's hand during an operation... (NOT FROM HOUSE, OKAY?) 21 week old baby = still able to be aborted. Oh, and I thought I'd post this for Tori who says that it's okay to abort a baby if you were victim of rape: God has plans for you even BEFORE you were born. Lives aren't mistakes.
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Post by {joy the hideous new girl} on Jul 14, 2007 9:04:23 GMT -5
I was about to have a snarkfest about all those pictures, but then people would think me evil. So, I'll just say that they don't change my opinion at all. Fetuses can't think, reason, remember, love... they're not alive. As for the second picture, (that's an awesome picture by the way) twenty-one weeks is pretty freaking late to be getting an abortion. So, yes, I think I consider that wrong, because the baby is pretty far along in development.
My point is that those pictures are just propaganda.
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Post by TORI! (is so hyper it's scary) on Jul 14, 2007 11:04:17 GMT -5
Ditto.
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maria
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Post by maria on Jul 14, 2007 21:05:13 GMT -5
Well what do YOU think about the verse, Tori?
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Post by tyler on Jul 14, 2007 22:29:28 GMT -5
That verse has much more significance than some of the other man-made slogans/graphics. But they do make quite a statement. Even if it's propaganda, it isn't bad because I believe it points toward reason.
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Post by {joy the hideous new girl} on Jul 14, 2007 23:16:20 GMT -5
HAHA NO ONE CAN STOP THE AGNOSTIC!!!!!!!!
*disappears into the shadows*
{forgive me, I'm tired.}
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