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Post by kathleensamazing on Aug 12, 2007 21:03:53 GMT -5
I agree completely with joy
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Post by Swoosh on Aug 21, 2007 21:37:16 GMT -5
Interesting quote:
"Life is in a constant state of creation. Evolution isn't over - it's all around you, changing as we go. Nothing in our world exists in isolation. We - meaning humans and animals and plants and microbes and everything else - are all evolving together. Life after all is a complicated gift - an almost impossible assemblage of biology, chemistry, electricity, and engineering that adds up to a miraculous whole so much greater than the sum of its parts. The entire universe is geared toward disorder. Given all the forces pulling for disorder, it's a wonder we live at all - and so long and well as most of us do. When you make that mental leap - when you think of the amazing gift of your life in the context of all then early incomprehensible forces of the universe pulling toward chaos - it reorients you, imbuing you with a deep respect for the immensely beautiful and intricate design of life on earth. Life that has been created and re-created again and again and again through billions of years of trial and toil. Something so complicated and time-consuming that it has to be a labor of love. The more we learn about the unbelievably complex, immensely varied, yet simultaneously simple origin and development of life on earth, the more it looks like a miracle, and on that is still unfolding. The miracle of evolution." - Sharon Moalem
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maria
New Member
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Post by maria on Aug 22, 2007 8:07:03 GMT -5
I think that the Earth, humans, weather, thoughts, life, emotions, all of that stuff... I think it's all too complicated to be something that happened by chance or something that came from one organism.
Why is there even a solar system? Why is the Universe even there? What purpose does it serve? I know we need sunlight, but why did that little organism choose to become a universe and then a planet? Why not just some general place to live?
I just think everything was designed too creatively.
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Post by Swoosh on Aug 22, 2007 8:28:43 GMT -5
The universe is merely the canvas on which large balls of gas, large chunks of orbiting rocks, and intelligent life must be placed. The universe is all-encompassing, as large as... everything. The question "Why is the Universe even there?" is an unanswerable question. Assuming the universe has to have a purpose to exist is a false assumption.When you're trying to talk in nonreligious terms, assuming everything has a purpose or reason for being is not a necesarry element, and we need to be open to the opposite - that maybe there IS no point.
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Post by tyler on Aug 22, 2007 13:07:15 GMT -5
I believe the universe exists to keep humans in check. God created the universe to be so large that humans could never fully explore or comprehend it. However large it may be, God is with us, and is able to reach us from across the universe as easily as you and I cross the street.
No amount of science could lead me to believe that God was not involved. Just because one is a Creationist does not mean they believe the earth was literally created seven of our days or that the earth is only a couple thousand years old.
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Post by Swoosh on Aug 22, 2007 15:25:13 GMT -5
I understand this- and contrary to popular belief, I haven't completely written off the idea of God yet. The point is, when talking in a non religiously biased discussion, one has to consider the POSSIBILITY that there doesn't have to be a purpose behind everything. Therefore "If evolution's true, why does the universe even exist?" isn't a valid argument.
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maria
New Member
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Post by maria on Aug 22, 2007 16:48:24 GMT -5
Assuming the universe has to have a purpose to exist is a false assumption.When you're trying to talk in nonreligious terms, assuming everything has a purpose or reason for being is not a necesarry element, and we need to be open to the opposite - that maybe there IS no point. But I don't think it's all pointless. If it is, then I should be able to do whatever I want to do! Why do humans and some animals need other humans and animals to reproduce? Why can't we just reproduce by ourselves? What's the point of love, friends, school, knowledge, rules, all of that? And don't argue with "it's human nature", because why can't "human nature" be just as pointless as the rest of the world? So the planets are just big rocks that have no purpose, well humans are just piles of flesh and blood with no purpose. Is it a coincidence that we're the only animal that actually wonders why it exists? What's the point of wondering if.... there's no point to our existence? I'm going to go run away and do whatever I feel like doing if there's no point. I'll stop being your friends. You can tell me that it's mean, but who's gonna judge me? Why do I have to be nice? Don't even try to tell me that "rules, school, friends, etc is just a better way to function" because if everything is pointless, all of my feelings and friends are pointless too. Does that make any sense?
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Post by Swoosh on Aug 22, 2007 16:59:12 GMT -5
Maria, yes, and this is one of the biggest questions a potential atheist/agnostic has to ask himself. Honestly, I've accepted that there might NOT be a point, and everything in your post is correct - everything we do, feel, and coexist with is ultimately pointless.
The thing is, even if you take that outlook on life, dwelling on it will only cause major headache and heartache because as you've noted, it's not a very cheerful thought. So even people who have resigned themselves to that way of thinking have to accept that they need to live their lives within the typical human guidelines, simply because to them, there's no better option.
It's a very hard concept to grasp, I know, but ultimately, it comes down to this: Just because your life's pointless in the grand scheme of things doesn't mean it's pointless within your own constraints. YOU won't keep on going for billions of years like the universe, so do your best to "matter" within the perimeters of your measly 100 years.
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Post by ghostie on Aug 22, 2007 17:36:52 GMT -5
I can't let you all do this to a scientific thread! This has degenerated into a pointless raving back and forth of emotionally charged, philosophical confusion! Casting a smokescreen of hazy logic is not the same as actually supporting a valid point.
So maybe we have a purpose, maybe we don't. Inspirational quotes aside, the purpose of this thread is to debate the HISTORICAL VERACITY of the evolutionary theory. You can find plenty of people to say evolution is "inspiring" or "dangerous" or "revolutionary". This is jargon, not fact. FACT is what we are concerned with, and I believe that there is substantial doubt as to the FACT of evolution.
I believe, also, that the purpose of my argument was misunderstood. I was not presenting a case FOR intelligent design. On the contrary, I was not presenting a case FOR anything! No, my entire argument was presented as a case AGAINST evolution, and nothing beyond that. The questions of design and purpose are irrelevant: all we are discussing is the simple true or false answer to the question of evolution.
Maybe a lovely little board on the meaning of life would be in order to house this conversation.
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Post by tyler on Aug 23, 2007 9:59:46 GMT -5
Honestly, I've accepted that there might NOT be a point, and everything in your post is correct - everything we do, feel, and coexist with is ultimately pointless. That, children, is called Nihilism. Don't let it happen to you, but if it does, who cares, right? Nothing means nothing. This, dear friends, is called Existentialism. If it happened to you, it's probably because you made it happen, in order to justify your existence.
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Post by Swoosh on Aug 23, 2007 14:29:45 GMT -5
I can't let you all do this to a scientific thread! This has degenerated into a pointless raving back and forth of emotionally charged, philosophical confusion! Casting a smokescreen of hazy logic is not the same as actually supporting a valid point. So maybe we have a purpose, maybe we don't. Inspirational quotes aside, the purpose of this thread is to debate the HISTORICAL VERACITY of the evolutionary theory. You can find plenty of people to say evolution is "inspiring" or "dangerous" or "revolutionary". This is jargon, not fact. FACT is what we are concerned with, and I believe that there is substantial doubt as to the FACT of evolution. I believe, also, that the purpose of my argument was misunderstood. I was not presenting a case FOR intelligent design. On the contrary, I was not presenting a case FOR anything! No, my entire argument was presented as a case AGAINST evolution, and nothing beyond that. The questions of design and purpose are irrelevant: all we are discussing is the simple true or false answer to the question of evolution. Maybe a lovely little board on the meaning of life would be in order to house this conversation. Allan, the title of this thread is not "EVOLUTION 0_0: A Scientific Examination". Any and all topics relating to evolution are relevant in here, so if we want ot talk about its philosophical implications, why can't we? Wait, why am I talking to you? You're gone...
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Post by {joy the hideous new girl} on Sept 6, 2007 10:44:33 GMT -5
The universe is merely the canvas on which large balls of gas, large chunks of orbiting rocks, and intelligent life must be placed. And the sun is a mass of incandescent gas. =)
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Keaton
Full Member
Come with me, to the Emerald City.
Posts: 266
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Post by Keaton on Sept 7, 2007 16:24:58 GMT -5
If we evolved from apes, why aren't apes still evolving today?
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Post by Swoosh on Sept 7, 2007 16:53:41 GMT -5
We went over this a page back, but evolution is aslow, SLOOOOOOOOOOOOW process. Heck, it took thousands upon thousands of years for the single-celled organism to evolve into a two-celled organism. However, because the Earth is billions of years old (which has been proven over and over in multiple scientific fields), life has had enough time to evolve into the variety it has today.
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Post by {joy the hideous new girl} on Sept 7, 2007 19:18:14 GMT -5
HOW COME WE CAN'T SPEAK MONKEY.
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