maria
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Post by maria on Apr 16, 2007 16:43:57 GMT -5
When I went to Lincoln, I had only one friend (unless you count Brittany) "Dang, I'm your friend!" lol Is that the right Brittany? LOL! Yup, that is totally Brittany... but don't forget! She's also a bird Swoosh, I've been thinking and praying for you a lot lately. I'm not sure why you decided to start thinking about atheism and agnosticism, but I'll still try to figure that out. I go to Weaver, which is the most liberal and atheist school in Greensboro, probably. Everyone has all of these reasons for why they don't believe in God: "He's heartless for letting kids in Africa starve", "Where are the dinosaurs in the Bible?", "It's just an excuse for people to have an easy way of comfort", etc. I really do believe that it's probably easier for someone who grew up without God in their family at all to come to Christ and experience Him in a way that seems more real vs. someone who was raised in the traditional Christian household. That doesn't mean that people who grow up in a Christian family can't experience God like others, it just means that they feel more "used to God" than the others. I'm taking Biology this semester and I'm starting to realize that God made EVERYTHING so perfectly! It's INSANE when there's a probability for ANYTHING to happen, yet there's just the right amount of EVERYTHING in just one tiny little cell for it to sustain itself! And that's only a cell! There are things smaller than cells that are even more amazing and elaborate! I can't study anything without reminding myself that only God could create something so perfect. I don't want to get locked into a debate though, because God isn't a debate topic for me. God isn't a "religion", God is real! He's MORE than real! Swoosh, I barely ever hear God's voice, and when I think I do, I still have doubts that it's actually Him, but I still know that He is real because I have been in and out of relationships with him all the time and I can see and feel how He changes me! I know who God is because I can see how well he handles my life even when I don't even notice! Your relationship with God shouldn't be dependent on things you hear at church, or other people's relationships with God. The Bible tells us that we should always look to God's Word ourselves so we can interpret it genuinely. God is everything, Swoosh, and He wants to be your everything! If you view God as a religion of going to church, being sinless, and Bible reading, it's so much more than that! If you listen to God, He will talk to you! If you have faith, He will be there! It's good for Christians to have fellowship, but you have to have your own personal relationship with God where you discover Him without your church and youth groups telling you how! And you can't go into something expecting failure, you have to have faith! You have to believe! Swoosh, why would we be trying so hard to tell you that there is a real God if we didn't know it to be true? We're not telling you this because we want more members in our "cult", we're telling you because there is a real God who longs for a relationship with you, and we have experienced His love ourselves! Talk to God, Swoosh, He's always ready for you. If you found something so completing and so awesome, wouldn't you want to let your friends know about it? He wants to be your best friend, He wants to show you his unconditional love, He wants to show Himself to you! The Christian religion is almost brainwashed in the way they defend their beliefs sometimes, and some "Christians" put the Christian religion as their God instead of putting God himself in that place! I've definitely done that before, and it's not what God wants! Take a look at Jesus' life! Jesus never went to church, and whenever He did, He told everyone what they were doing wrong! Jesus didn't depend on the rules of the church, He depended on God, and the Bible tells us to be like Jesus. God wants you to be His, Swoosh! Today I was praying in the car... and God said to me, "Be mine." He doesn't want me to be a clone and do what Christians are told they're "supposed" to do, if I'm supposed to do things like devotionals, praying before dinner, etc., I should figure out how to do that myself with God, not just depend on sermons at church (even though they can be helpful, they should inspire us to seek God and what He's trying to tell us, not burn Christian rules into our heads without reading the Bible first.) Don't you see? This is more than any debate, this is God! There's more to worry about than who's right and who's wrong. There will always be people to agree with you whether you're a Christian or not, there will always be people to "boost" your confidence in what you believe, but only God can show Himself to you, only God can give you what you need, only God can save you. I can't save you, Allan can't save you, Joy can't save you, Atheism can't save you, only God can. I know God to be real. He is no topic of debate. Arguing that He's not there isn't going to make Him not there, and arguing that He IS there isn't going to make Him real. God wants you to choose Him, and only you can make that choice. God wants you to know Him, Swoosh. Gosh my ramblings make no sense... I'll keep praying for you, Swoosh. You are one of my best friends and I want you to know that I wouldn't get so emotional over something that I'm creating in my head or something that I want to believe because I've been "raised to". I've found God personally, nobody else did it for me. always there for you, Maria
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Post by Swoosh on Apr 18, 2007 20:40:44 GMT -5
Maria, I understand what it is to meet God personally - but I honestly doubt that it was really me meeting God. I think it was a compilation of wishful thinking, sudden strong impulses, emotional overload, etc. that caused the feeling of "God's presence". Stating the feeling of God's presence is sufficient proof for His existence is like claiming that weird feeling you get when you feel like something is crawling up your neck proves that there are invisible worms out to get you.
Let me ask you this - if God created all people, why is he not better at getting them to follow him? Why did he leave the ancient Egyptians, Greeks, Romans and Native Americans in the dark about His ways, leaving them to create their own faiths and deities? Did all of those "nonbelievers" (if its possible to label someone whose never even HEARD of the Judeo-Christian God as a "nonbeliever") go to Hell simply because God didn't try as hard to reveal himself to them? WHY did he only reveal himself to the Hebrew people? Does he like them more? I thought the whole basis of Chrsitianity (and, to a lesser extent, Judaism) is that "God is love", love in its purest form. If you truly lvoed someone, would YOU let them create fairy tales about Zeus and rain gods, all the while knowing that that path would lead them to an eternity seperated from You?
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Post by TORI! (is so hyper it's scary) on Apr 18, 2007 20:43:46 GMT -5
one sec. The acient Greeks made Zeus. WE ALL CHRSTIANS NOW BOY!
hahah. I understand. I'm still Christian, but I love you. <3
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Post by Swoosh on Apr 18, 2007 20:46:55 GMT -5
one sec. The ancient Greeks made Zeus. My point is, did the ancient Greeks go to Hell because they didn't believe in the "One True God"?
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maria
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Post by maria on Apr 18, 2007 21:01:26 GMT -5
Maria, I understand what it is to meet God personally - but I honestly doubt that it was really me meeting God. I think it was a compilation of wishful thinking, sudden strong impulses, emotional overload, etc. that caused the feeling of "God's presence". Stating the feeling of God's presence is sufficient proof for His existence is like claiming that weird feeling you get when you feel like something is crawling up your neck proves that there are invisible worms out to get you. The Bible says not to trust all feelings, and the times when I get amazing feelings from God is when I'm not asking for them! I KNOW that God is really there and that I can feel his presence! I used to do lots of bad things, Swoosh. I thought about and exposed myself to so many horrible things. It was so bad, that when I finally got things straightened out with God, I still had those horrible thoughts and urges like I used to, even when I didn't want to! I prayed to God that they'd go away, and a few days later, I forgot all about all of it! When I remembered that I had bad thoughts, I was so stunned that they went away that quickly without me even noticing! EVERY SINGLE time I've "worked things out with God", my life has gotten so much better and I look back at who I was without him and realize that I was so blind! With God, I'm awake! With God, I can cast my fears, doubts, worries, problems, etc. onto him and they're completely gone! When I tried to do that without Him and just "forget" about them and push them out of the way, they would ALWAYS come back! Swoosh, I've tried to recreate those "happy spine-tingly feelings" on my own, but it has NEVER been the same! In fact, I almost forget how it felt before I'm reminded again when being enlightened by God! Oh, but it might just be because I don't believe it will, but it's not! I've done it before, convincing myself that it was me, but it didn't work. I might not hear God's voice very well, but I see His work in my life! When I'm close to God, my attitude changes without me even trying to do anything! It really is like... I'm not blind anymore when I'm with God. When you don't have God, problems build up and you can only find comfort in other people, and it's never the kind of comfort you can find in God! As Humans, there's always something that's "#1" on our list of things that are most important to us... If there wasn't a God, would that even make sense? Whether you think so or not, there's always something that's going to be most important to you, and that thing will influence your every action. God made us so we'd have HIM in that place! When He's there, all is right! God should always be number one on our list! God is our guide! Swoosh, I can try to convince you over and over again, but nothing will change unless YOU make a choice! I can't debate myself enough to make you see God, that's your choice. God only has us make one decision: to believe and follow Him. I can't do it for you.
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Post by theallan on Apr 18, 2007 21:36:28 GMT -5
I can tell that debate is a pointless excercise with you, Swoosh. Your mind is made up :-( I'll keep praying for you and I hope you eventually see what I mean when I talk about meeting God for real. It's not an "experience" you get when you're standing in a worship service and inspirational music is playing and the minister is giving a passionate speech. That's for our benefit. I like the story in the Bible where Elijah goes up to the mountain and sees all these crazy things, but God was in none of them. God was in the still, small voice. That's where you meet God. Emotion has so little to do with it. A lot of the time, you don't even WANT it to be God. There are those amazing, and very emotional, "God-moments", but then there's the day-to-day experience with Him that trumps it all. If you've never seen that, then you won't get it. But don't even try to tell me I'm making it up, because I've seen way too much for that I get it. You have problems with Christianity. I totally understand that, because I do too. Major problems. God "condemning" the unreached to Hell is a puzzler that has had theologians theorizing for millenia, and they're just going to keep bickering. As far as I can see, we all have a choice. Everyone does what they know is wrong eventually. Paul said it best: "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" It's inevitable. God doesn't condemn us from Him, we condemn OURSELVES. God is love. It's so true. But you want to know what else is true? God WANTS love. Our love. It's why He made humanity in the first place, and it's why He lets us create these weird gods. Because He wants us to choose Him for ourselves, not follow Him like mindless drones. Here's my challenge: tell me what YOU would have done differently were YOU God. If you can tell me one thing God could have done better and still met his goal of love, I'll never post on this thread again. Allan
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maria
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Post by maria on Apr 18, 2007 21:44:17 GMT -5
Swoosh, maybe the religion is bothering you, but God is not a religion, and you shouldn't treat him as a set of rules.
Honestly, I want to experience God completely naturally. I have problems when I know that if I do something then I might benefit from it, because I want to love God because I want to love God, not just because it's "the right thing to do" and it'll help ME. I know that I can't let pastors or anyone live my relationship with God for me, I have to do it myself!
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Post by Nina ♥ on Apr 23, 2007 4:55:14 GMT -5
Its hard to believe but still, I have faith just because....wow that doesnt help, but I still believe despite all the scientific proof and raised crap from skeptics.
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maria
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Post by maria on Apr 25, 2007 19:34:39 GMT -5
Swoosh... I guess I feel like your "discovery" of yourself is almost... impulsive? I dont know... I feel like you think that you're finding all of these things that you've "never seen before" and now you're finally "opening your eyes" because you're not "blindly following a religion", but I think this "free" and "lively" feeling you're having is only temporary...
Maybe you feel free without Christianity because you felt like you were restrained by all of the "rules" that you hear about at church. How did you honestly view your faith in God? Was it a set of rules you had to follow, doing the right thing and praying before meals? Because that's not what God is about. GOD IS NOT A SET OF RULES... God is something you should seek yourself, personally!
Seriously, Swoosh, all of your friends on this forum that believe in God and have a relationship with him personally aren't trying to throw verses and arguments at you to "earn points" in our "Christian Cult". God isn't about earning points either!
When I, Tyler, Allan, etc. tell you how sad we are and how we feel a deep loss... it really is because we know that God wants to give you the most amazing gift of love and that you're missing out on the most amazing experience: a personal relationship with God! If you had something so relieving, something so unlike anything worldly, something so real, wouldn't you want to tell your friends about it? And wouldn't you be devastated if one of your friends left it for something they might not have even thought about if it weren't for the world?
There are so many amazing and overwhelming things in a relationship with God! God designed everything so perfectly, down to every blade of grass and every thought that runs through our heads! That one step you take to follow God is worth the relationship afterwards! God only asks you to do one thing, Swoosh! Follow Him. God gives you more than you could ever ask for! And even though He gives you everything, you still have that amazing desire to praise Him even if He didn't!
Swoosh, when I read your posts, it really is like there's something you're not listening to in our posts! I can't figure out what it is! I know you're reading them, but it's like there's something you're not listening for! Something you've put a wall up to. But it's the most important message! It's like no matter how many times we try to tell you how amazing God is and how beautiful He is, you will only truly understand if you make that choice.
You think you can see now? You've only BECOME blind instead of opened your eyes! Don't you see how hard we're straining to get this message across to you but still not succeeding? Doesn't that prove that you're not seeing something?
Swoosh, God opens your eyes when you trust and follow Him personally. You can't be saved through Youth trips, worship songs, or goodnight-prayers. You can only experience God if you let go of what the world is telling you and follow Him!
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Post by Swoosh on Apr 29, 2007 18:13:19 GMT -5
Maria, I've never really regarded God as a set of rules - I've been in church long enough to understand the theology, beliefs, and the ideas of a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ. I've even experienced "God's presence" as you've said. And I will admit it is a great experience, completely enlightening and liberating at times.
But even this phenomenon, believe it or not, can be explained away. its a little known fact that what you believe affects the way you act and feel. So if you believe there is a God up there, an all-poweful God who both controls the entire universe AND cares about you personally - well, this is a rather uplifting thought, isn't it? And you'll eventually start to hear a still small voice in your head - the "voice of god", right?
But, logically, why would God's voice be small and still? I mean, why can't God's voice appear verbally, even if its only to your ears. He did it tons of times in the Old Testament (and maybe even the New, though I'm not sure) - why not now? Certainly, if I heard an audible "voice of god", I'd be quite apt to believe. But I don't.
This sensation you feel during worship and prayer is really just a physchological sensation, not a spiritual one, much like the meditation of Eastern religion can be explained away by pyschology, too. You see, the still, small voice you hear is your own subconcious mind, "speaking" to you. Much in the same way, the joy you feel is a result of the idealistic world you've immeresed yourself in - the world of a loving God, a divine purpose, a heavenly afterlife.
Think of it this way. Think, just for a moment, that an invisible pink unicorn is always following you around, protecting you from danger and whispering words of hope in your ear at all the right moments. Now, even though you know an IPU doesn't exist, if you allow yourself to believe it, just for a moment, won't it make you feel better about your life, to know someone cares unconditionally? Now replace "IPU" with "God". Well, then...
Explain away the "relationship with God" idea and what are you left with? Well, Bible-wise - A bunch of scientifically unsound Hebrew myths, a religiously biased portrayal of Hebrew history, a contradictory ancient God who is both full of love for all and mercilessly kills scores of people. Then New Testament: a religiously biased account of the life of Jesus (admittedly, one of the most intriguing figures of history), a religiously biased history of the early church, and a bunch of letters with some pretty sound advice on how to live, but - again - they are religiously biased. Hmm... I don't find much to believe in, myself.
Now, I'm not going to say MY worldview is going ot make you feel better about life, which is why I'm not trying to inflict it upon you. Fro mwhat I understand, when we die, that will be it - we will simply stop existing, as all living things do. We don't have a bunch of amoeba and plant ghosts floating around, do we? Because I buy into evolution, and I think it highly unlikely that humans could, through the evolutionary process, develop a "soul", and because I've read many scientific documents concerning how much of your personality and decision-making is run by the brain, not a supernatural "soul", this leads me to one conclusion: like all other living things, we die and - that's it. Not very reassuring, is it?
So what this means to me is that this 70-100 years is all I'm getting - and I want to get as much as I can out of them. I'm not proposing some Satanist-esque belief system of self indulgence, now. I believe that it DOES feel good to help people and make the world a better place along with the people in it. I hope I'm remembered for something after my death, and I hope people will look at my life as a role model and a source of hope. THIS is the goal I'm pursuing during this evolutionary accident of self-aware life I've been gifted with. Therefore, it would be a waste of precious time to read ancient texts from an increasingly obsolete book, spend time kneeling and in a physchological joy bubble, or give ten plus percent of my income that could be spent for self-enjoyment or to help others.
I want to truly LIVE my life, happy and free and morally upright in this godless universe.
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maria
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Post by maria on Apr 29, 2007 18:24:26 GMT -5
Have you read my post in the homosexuality thread? I know that this is the wrong thread for this, but nobody seems to respond to my posts in the proper thread Swoosh, let me be completely and totally honest: When I read that you were thinking of becoming atheist or agnostic, or... just not believing God, I got really sad and I cried a little... Honestly, I have probably one of the worst histories of faith out of anyone who believes in God that you know, but I still do believe in Him. I wish that you could see that there is a lot more for you to worry about than who your friends are in this matter, and anyway, Tyler, Allan, and I are always going to be your friends! Why do you insist on telling us that we're not? I wish you could see how hard we're trying to tell you what we know. I know that I'm always "the nice one on everyone's side", but please listen to me and know that I'm not just saying all of this because I'm trying to be nice. It really does make me sad to know that you're missing out on God's love and God's loyalty and God's friendship! A relationship with God is something that you can only experience fully when you have it! Since you INSIST debating about this, let me ask you a few questions... What have you argued against God that one of us hasn't been able to come back with with a response that makes sense? If you don't think you're blind, why is it that you really can't sense our emotion and our pleading posts? Swoosh, why would I be trying so hard if it was "just another religion"?? Can you not see how heartbroken we are about this? And yet we're not going to abandon you, Swoosh! Can you think of ONE GOOD REASON that we'd still be talking about this if there really wasn't anything true about what we're saying? Sure, you might think that we're just being this emotional because it's something that we've always believe in and we've put our lives into. It's just something that we've CONVINCED ourselves that's real and true and we've tricked ourselves in believing that God is real, when really it's just a "mind trick". If ANYONE has been struggling with wondering if life is a "mind trick" or if I'm convincing myself of things, it's me! Swoosh, I struggle with my thoughts every day! There are times when I have no earthly idea how I feel about anything! My mind is so crazy! I hate how unstable my thoughts are, and it's so hard for me to determine my reactions and my feelings almost ALL THE time... The only thing I can be sure of is God and how He affects my life. Oh, but that's only because when you believe God is organizing your life, it's just a mind trick... If you believed it was yourself, it would work the same way... Well my response to that is: I've tried it. I've tried organizing my life myself, IGNORING God because I wanted to do it on my own! It doesn't work!!! You might not believe me, but why would I lie to you, Swoosh? I know myself, and I know how God helps me. God is the only solid thing in my life even when I didn't want to believe it. Without God, problems start boiling and piling up. Oh, it might not happen right away, but you just wait until life hits you with nothing to hold onto but yourself. I could never do it. I never have been able to do it, even when I denied God. You can try to talk to friends and counselors about it, but only God gives that relief that you didn't think you could ever have. How can you not hear me, Swoosh? I love you so much, Swoosh. And I will never stop being your friend! Like I said, I think about why I feel things all the time, Swoosh! With what you're saying, ALL of your feelings could just be results of what you've "convinced" yourself! Nobody is really in love, nobody really has friends, nobody really has a favorite color because they've subconsciously or psychologically convinced themselves that that's what they like. So really, nobody has ANY feelings whatsoever. Sins and good deeds make NO SENSE without God! Why are humans mean and nice? If we really did just "evolve because nature said so", why aren't we just... obliviously living life like animals? Only reproducing and taking care of children? Only trying to survive without worrying about birthday parties and things like that? Why would we get smarter? Why would we discover things and be creative and only do things because "it's fun"?? In the "world of nature", things don't just happen "for fun". With no God, life is utterly completely MEANINGLESS... It doesn't matter if you break someones heart, if you murder them, it doesn't matter what you do at all because you wont get punished for it when there's no God! Plus, if humans produce guidelines for traffic, classrooms, government, did we just do that because that's "part of nature"? or was it something within us already? Man was created in God's image! Besides, evolution is studied backwards. I've purposely ignored God to deal with my life before... on my own! I thought I was going to live the way I wanted to freely... then I discovered that I couldn't do that! No matter how hard I believed I could, I couldn't! Things piled up! ...but as soon as I gave them to God, they were gone before I could even think about it! And how do you explain tongues, Swoosh? Surely you know what it is to speak in tongues... Do you think someone can make up an entire different language inside their head and coincidentally have it sound the same in everyone else who's tried it? ...I've spoken in tongues before... and I've TRIED to do it without God because I really didn't believe it was Him... it didn't work! ....I don't need any of this right now... I want to run away.
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Post by Swoosh on Apr 29, 2007 18:32:41 GMT -5
...I'm not meaning to cause doubts in anyone here, I'm just trying to defend my beliefs, so please don't let me offend you.
And you do have some very valid points, Maria - and despite what it may seem like in this thread, I haven't completely given up on Christianity yet. I came to my current conclusion by intensive studying from both sides of the argument, and even though the atheism side has one for the moment, any strong argument from Christianity could win me back. You guys know I'm very impulsive. IF I ever do become a Christian again, though, expect me to be VERY liberal in my beliefs.
And Maria and Allan and Tyler, I appreciate all of you, honestly, from the bottom of my heart. Because, as Pascal's Wager says, if I'm wrong, I lose everything, and I know you guys are just trying to protect me from hellfire and to "live life more abundantly" as you believe God can help me to do. So thank you for caring.
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maria
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Post by maria on Apr 29, 2007 18:47:33 GMT -5
any strong argument from Christianity could win me back. You guys know I'm very impulsive. IF I ever do become a Christian again, though, expect me to be VERY liberal in my beliefs. And Maria and Allan and Tyler, I appreciate all of you, honestly, from the bottom of my heart. Because, as Pascal's Wager says, if I'm wrong, I lose everything, and I know you guys are just trying to protect me from hellfire and to "live life more abundantly" as you believe God can help me to do. So thank you for caring. Swoosh, we can't MAKE you a Christian... Believing in God is something you do out of faith YOURSELF... God isn't going to throw proof at you, what kind of faith and love would that be? Like Allan said earlier, God wants real love! Not people coming to Him because he makes them! If you were in a relationship with someone, you'd want them to fall in love with you on their own, it would mean a lot less if you gave them $5 to "be in love" with you! And Swoosh, God isn't a conservative or a liberal. I dont think He'll care about how you feel about taxes or Welfare. I have met lots of liberal Christians! Just because rednecked-baptists are uber-conservative doesn't mean that they're the prime example of Christians! If they were, Allan and Tyler would get a mullet and I'd buy curlers to look like Dolly Parton... sorry if I just scarred everyone for life... And this is more than just some debate. Believing in God isn't just another religion... It's more than just guidelines... it's the truth, and GOD cares about you too, Swoosh.
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Post by {joy the hideous new girl} on Apr 29, 2007 19:15:37 GMT -5
And Maria and Allan and Tyler, I appreciate all of you, honestly, from the bottom of my heart. Because, as Pascal's Wager says, if I'm wrong, I lose everything, and I know you guys are just trying to protect me from hellfire. ^My fundamental problem with Christianity. >_>
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maria
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Post by maria on Apr 29, 2007 19:21:25 GMT -5
And Maria and Allan and Tyler, I appreciate all of you, honestly, from the bottom of my heart. Because, as Pascal's Wager says, if I'm wrong, I lose everything, and I know you guys are just trying to protect me from hellfire. ^My fundamental problem with Christianity. >_> But you're looking at what you'd LOSE, not how easy it is to have a relationship with God! You only have to take one step! And it's totally worth it!
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