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Post by Swoosh on Apr 12, 2007 18:26:43 GMT -5
...or maybe even Atheism. www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/theism_index.htmRead a few of the articles on that site - they raise up some of the unavoidable issues I've always had with Christianity and theism in general, and never been brave enough to face up to or intelligent enough to put into cohesive words. Right now, I consider myself an Agnostic teetering on the edge of Atheism - a long way to fall from the son of a minister. If anyone can read those articles and offer me some reason they DON'T disprove the existence of the Judeo-Christian God, or even a god at all, PLEASE post here with your arguments.
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Post by {joy the hideous new girl} on Apr 12, 2007 19:40:11 GMT -5
*GLOMPNESS*
*MANY GLOMPNESS*
>_> *hides from Mariallan*
I don't mean to come across as "yes...yes...Christianity is bad...come to us...mwahahaha" but I'm just so thankful that I'm not the only one in my group of close friends who's agnostic.
However, I'm a little different, agnostic only in the fact that I have no organized religion. I am (should be) doing homework right now, so I can't explain everything right now, but I strongly believe that there is some sort of god, only in the fact that love and life exist. I felt a strong connection when I went to church that I kept trying to be Christian. But so many of the values in Christianity (homosexuality, salvation only by believing, creationism, etc.) I just found conflicting to me and I slowly broke away from it.
Swoosh, I know this must be really hard for you, because it was for me, but I am totally behind you 100%, and none of the Christians here are going to abandon you, because they haven't abandoned me. If you want to talk to me on AIM or phone sometime you can, and I'll read those articles later and talk to you.
Just don't turn Scientologist.
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maria
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Post by maria on Apr 12, 2007 22:19:04 GMT -5
I have a statement and it might not mean anything to you, but i'll say it anyway:
Just because your "allowed" to believe in God doesn't mean it's a bad thing.
You have free will, but God can still know what you're about to do. He just chooses to let you have a choice with what you're going to do. God gives you his guide, it's up to you to accept it. God can do the rest.
We dont know why God set up some of the things He did. Why did He LET Adam sin? It could've been perfect! I dont know why he did it, but there is so much proof that God is real that I'm going to deal with it because I know that God is love and God can do anything he knows is right. When I get to Heaven, maybe I'll ask Him why he did it this way.
Things can't always be the way you want them to be, but with God, His way is always the best for you! Even if you can't see it yet. It's not like slavery or anything because He loves and there's no love like God.
How do you explain speaking in tongues? How do you explain all of the amazing things God does with Angels? Miracles? That feeling you get when you LET God in and he can solve everything in a way you NEVER expected? Do you think we create all of that in our heads?
Why can't God be infinite if everything is possible with God?
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Post by Swoosh on Apr 13, 2007 15:36:16 GMT -5
Just something about your assertino that God OBSERVES our actions, rather than controls them, so therefore we have free will:
As for the rest of your post, is it not possible that, emotionally, the feeling rhat a loving, all-knowing God is in control of our lives MAKES us feel overly optimistic about our roles i nthe universe, and, therefore, fills us with "the joy of Christ"? Could it be possible that the reason "miracles" occur is because when something against the odds occurs, we rush to thank this all-knowing loving God?
Think of it this way - Every time God "causes a small miracle" in someone's life (helping them to get a job, helping them find their way through a minor tragedy, etc.), a child dies of starvation in Africa. Sounds like God needs to get his priorities straight...
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Post by theallan on Apr 13, 2007 16:32:02 GMT -5
Swoosh, it's okay. I've been there. And back. I know how you feel right now. You're "waking up", right? Finally coming to terms with your questions by just answering them. You're stepping outside the sheltered umbrella of tradition and influence from those over you and you're exploring your world for yourself. That's good. But when we start questioning EVERYTHING, we have a tendency to deny things without question. That's dangerous. I'd love to talk to you, to share what I've seen and been through with you, but you know what I'm NOT going to do? I'm not going to tell you why God must exist. There's always another theory, another idea, another brilliant explanation for why God really isn't there. You can always explain things away if you really want to.
It's so easy to label things. As soon as God gets the label "emotionless scientist", He's either nonexistent or evil. On the flipside, as soon as we call him "all powerful", he's behind every open parking space at the grocery store. Both of these are supremely closed-minded, aren't they?
I believe in God. I really do. And I KNOW Him. You can believe me or not, the best I can do is tell you that I know a real God, who really does talk to me, and really does love me. Do I sound like a blind, Christian automaton yet? I know for a fact that I have hear God speak to me. But you don't know that. In fact, you're probably thinking of all the ways my experience isn't real and how easily fooled and gullible I am right now.
I know I'm rambling now, and I know that your mind is set, but it's just because I care about you. And if I'm right, God cares about you too, and I don't think He's going to let you go with just a goodbye. He cares. And you know what? He cares about the children in Africa too. In fact, God has already performed the greatest possible miracle to save them: he put US here. Tell me, how many children in Africa have you helped today? This week? This month? This year? It's easy to tell God to do His job, but it's a lot harder to do ours. Maybe the reason children in Africa are starving is because WE aren't doing what God put us here for. Who is He? Get to know him and find out.
Don't be too quick to listen to what you want to hear. It's easy to find someone to talk to who will just say "Yeah! Yeah! That's right! Exactly!", but when you're both wrong it's just the blind leading the blind (to borrow from Jesus)
I'll pray for you.
Your friend, Allan :-)
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Post by tyler on Apr 14, 2007 2:06:19 GMT -5
Man, it's 3:00 a.m. and I'm way too tired to be of much help.
But I was intrigued by your question of "miracles" in this life, because just recently I was questioning this very issue. A member of my church was seriously ill and we prayed for him. But my mom was perturbed by the fact that the pastor didn't pray for Divine intervention and healing. To which the ill person's wife said "If miracles happened to everyone at all times, they wouldn't exactly be special. They wouldn't be miracles, but rather an everyday affair."
I just thought that was very interesting.
I'll pray for you, because I know faith can be so hard, especially when one grows up in church all their life like I did. To be honest, my true relationship with Christ didn't occur until high school, or dare I say it, even as late as college.
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Post by Swoosh on Apr 14, 2007 23:13:14 GMT -5
At the moment, I'm pretty secure in saying that I am a Humanist...
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maria
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Post by maria on Apr 14, 2007 23:20:34 GMT -5
I thought about this a lot recently...
I think I've decided that first of all, I think the whole "There's no free will if God knows..." thing can't be right if God isn't even in our perception of time. There are lots of things that we as humans can't possibly comprehend about time and space... and spacetime *winks at Allan*...
Besides, God can create the world without PROOF that he made it! He doesn't have to put a signature on EVERYTHING he does! But when He DOES do something that can only be done by Him, it's so INCREDIBLE! If we knew He did everything, how could we be so amazed by Him all the time? I think God does things the way He does for a reason...
oh... and what is "Humanist" ..?
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Post by theallan on Apr 15, 2007 1:22:03 GMT -5
Swoosh, there are plenty of humanists who are also Christians. Some of the greatest Chritian thinkers and writers of the early church were Christian HUMANISTS! The two aren't mutually exclusive :-) I mean, the God of the Bible must be pretty humanist Himself. He died for them, after all ;-) I know you're going through a lot with this, Swoosh. It's really hard to think about things like this, and I'm proud of you for doing it with an open mind. But for that same reason I beg you not to be too easily persuaded. A website is, after all, just a website. Even the flat earth society has pages of articles to support their ideas.
I personally do take issue with a lot of things the "Christian" church does. But that doesn't make Christianity wrong, it just makes the people interpreting Christ's words wrong. Most of what I believe about God comes from my own personal experience with Him. Believe me, Swoosh, a connection to God is a connection worth developing.
I wish so much there was some way I could just....magically make you see what I see. But there isn't. All I can do is tell you that there is a real God, and I know Him. I talk to Him, and He talks back. I've seen Him do the impossible and felt Him more deeply than anything. I'm not a fanatic or a Bible-thumper, I'm just in love. And I want to see everyone in love with God, because I know what it means. If you're having difficulty, please PLEASE talk to me! Call me at 2:30 AM if you have to, I'll be happy to explain anything you want, pray with you, or direct you to someone who can help you. I care about you. I'm not mad or upset or disappointed, I just care about you because GOD cares about you. More than you know. Please just let yourself listen to Him! He's still there, he's still talking to you, just...listen!
Ugh...again I ramble...I really hope I can get through to you, Swoosh. I really do care...I've cried enough over the past two days to make that obvious to anyone in my house.
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Post by Swoosh on Apr 15, 2007 7:19:24 GMT -5
Okay, I know exactly how all of you guys feel - your religion means a lot to you, and I understand, mine meant a lot to me, too. I have no way of knowing if this atheist stint is permenant or not, but for know, I'm going to present one of my problems with Christianity:
The size of the universe! When Judaism and Christianity were created, we had no way of knowing the size of the unvierse in which we live, and turned to a deity or deities who cared and took care of Earth - and Earth alone (the only reality we knew).Through current studies of outer space, we now know that Earth is really nothing special - just another planet, orbiting another srar, much like the millions of other stars in the Milky Way Galaxy, which is one of only billions of other galaxies in the universe. Can God really cares so much for this small rock floating in space? Are we really the only life out there, special creations made in God's image? Why even BOTHER making the rest of the universe, then?
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maria
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Post by maria on Apr 15, 2007 12:50:31 GMT -5
Maria's experience:
Okay, honestly, I can barely hear God's voice. And if I ever do hear anything, I hear "listen" because obviously I'm not listening hard enough! Maybe it has to do with the fact that I talk too much... especially with God. =P
Over the past year my interpretation of "God" has changed SO MUCH. I used to think that God was an almighty, loving, powerful, but VERY SERIOUS God, therefore I never thought of Him as a "friend", just an authority. I thought I only had to pray when there was something I need to ask for or something I needed forgiveness for. If there were any "personal" problems, I'd ask God to help, but I wouldn't sit down and talk to Him as a friend.
Then I found out that God is my BEST friend! He's always there to listen to me, and He's always ready to give me advice! ...Even though I get most of my advice from the Bible. When I went to Lincoln, I had only one friend (unless you count Brittany) and they were only in 2 of my classes out of 8. So what did I do? I talked to God the whole time! Even with my other friend, I was ALWAYS talking to God! I think that's the closest I've ever been to Him.
So I guess the point of that "story" was to prove that God isn't just an authority who gives rules and demands respect, He also wants to be your BEST friend, and I think that a lot of people don't know that! If it makes sense, I think some of the closest "bonding times" with God are when you're just talking about your day with Him and how it made you feel!
I went to a friend's house one night... and she told me that her family wasn't Christian and they felt almost like Christians seemed "brainwashed" and that whenever someone talked about it she felt pressured and uncomfortable. I asked her if that "pressure" proved that there actually was something real there, but she tried to change the subject. It was so sad how obvious it wast hat she was pushing away something she could feel because she was so afraid and she didn't want to change her beliefs or anything. I tried to tell her that it's a step that's definitely worth taking, but she still tried to change the subject.
After that, I decided that it might be easier to believe in God if you were saved after living a life without God, because you're experiencing everything for the first time, vs. being raised in a Christian family who raises you to believe everything, and you almost "get used to" what your family thinks God is, so you don't feel like there's anything there because that idea has ALWAYS been around you and you've gotten used to it. But that doesn't mean he's not there, it just means that you haven't experienced him personally and honestly! You shouldn't think of God as a "rule".
And why can't God care for "a small rock in the universe" haven't you read the verses about how God knows exactly how many hairs on your head and how He feeds the birds that are worth nothing? And I guess I dont feel like God has to tell us EVERYTHING He did and why He did it.
Ugh I know that nothing I'm saying is flowing very well at all... but I just thought I'd share how I felt about a few things.
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Post by theallan on Apr 15, 2007 16:19:24 GMT -5
I really do see whare you're coming from, Swoosh. But what you said isn't true. My religion isn't very important to me at all *ducks*. In fact, my religion means next to nothing to me. It's just another set of customs and traditions to follow. What DOES mean a lot to me is GOD. God as a real, existent being who knows me for who I really am. God who was willing to die for me. God who really talks to me. THAT is what is important to me. And even then, I really don't care WHO chellenges me on it. Whatever. Argue all you like, I know God for real, and telling me I don't is like telling me I don't know Maria. The reason I'm reacting like I am is because it's YOU, Swoosh. I don't want to see you go this way.
And if you think earth is nothing special, think about this:
1) We are perfectly placed in time. Too close to the beginning of the universe, and we fry. To far away and matter doesn't even stick together anymore.
2) We are safely placed in our galaxy. If we were just a little closer to the galactic center, thre thought of coherent planets and a sustainable biosphere would be laughable.
3) We are perfectly positioned to observe the universe. Our place in the Milky Way galaxy is truly unique, because our distance from the galactic center and our position up the galactic plane are so perfectly aligned that we can clearly see almost the entire universe. Pretty cool, huh?
4) Statistics. The odds against the formation of a planet capable of sustaining intelligent life forming by uninfluenced phenomena is less than 1 in the number of atoms in the universe.
WHY would God create such a big Universe? Swoosh, when you write a screenplay, do you just write in the characters and stop there? NO! The characters need a SETTING! Someplace big, rich, exciting, and full of things that have no other value than the fact that they exist. God is CREATIVE. He made the universe so big for that exact reason: it's BIG! It's a magnificent, awe inspiring creation that is simultaneously art, drama, music, and poetry. What else would you expect an all-powerful God to do?
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Post by Swoosh on Apr 15, 2007 19:19:41 GMT -5
And if you think earth is nothing special, think about this: 1) We are perfectly placed in time. Too close to the beginning of the universe, and we fry. To far away and matter doesn't even stick together anymore. 2) We are safely placed in our galaxy. If we were just a little closer to the galactic center, thre thought of coherent planets and a sustainable biosphere would be laughable. 3) We are perfectly positioned to observe the universe. Our place in the Milky Way galaxy is truly unique, because our distance from the galactic center and our position up the galactic plane are so perfectly aligned that we can clearly see almost the entire universe. Pretty cool, huh? 4) Statistics. The odds against the formation of a planet capable of sustaining intelligent life forming by uninfluenced phenomena is less than 1 in the number of atoms in the universe. Yes, I admit these are all decent arguments for the existence of an Intelligent Designer, but they have some flaws, like: -Ignoring the overall size of the universe. In a universe that is bigger than our mind can even comprehend (and one that is generally agreed upon to be constantly expanding), even the highly improbable is pretty much guaranteed to happen SOMEWHERE (and we already know of one planet that supports life...) -As for Argument 4, think about it this way: Shuffle a deck of playing cards, and lay them out on a table. The probability of the sequence you see appearing is 1/52 for the first card, 1/52 x 1/51 at the second card, 1/52 x 1/51 x 1/50 by the third card and so on. The probability that you produced the sequence you just did is 1/52 x 1/51 x 1/50......x 1/3 x 1/2 x 1/1 ( more simply, 1/(52!) ), or 1.2398e-68 (which is an incredible 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000012398). You just did something satistically "impossible" (in fact, trillions of times more "impossible" than the formation of life) - and you can even do it three or four times before you eat breakfast, with similarly "impossible" results. This is the reason Intelligent Design is being disregarded by modern scientists - because they have a tendency to display information that looks good on the surface but, when looked at closer, has gaping holes all throughout it. Whether Creationists are merely misguided as well or are actually trying to mislead us with their data, I'm not sure, but if its the latter, this seems to go in direct contradiction with the "bearing false witness" rule, doesn't it?
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Post by theallan on Apr 15, 2007 20:44:25 GMT -5
1) Never, ever, EVER talk about the size of the universe to a physicist. the statistic is very real: the probability of a planet capable of supporting intelligent life EXISTING is less than 1 in the number of atoms in the universe. In other words, if every atom in the universe was a planet, MAYBE you'd have a shot at getting a life-supporting planet. And that's not even counting the probability of abiogenesis (waaaay less than the probability of getting the correct planet) It's like the probability of the entire empire state building vanishing and appearing in Chicago two minutes later. Given enough space and time, it STILL won't happen. Besides, the universe has only had 13 billion years to work with.
2) This is almost true. But I'll give you the same scenario, only slightly different: you deal out the shuffled cards, but this time they are in perfect order and sorted by suit, which is the only arrangement that can be put into a manufacturer's deck of playing cards. Now there is only ONE possibility you are lookuing for out of ALL the trillions, meaning you could deal cards at a rate of hundreds every second and not get the right combination by the time the universe is GONE. THAT is what happened on earth. The ONE permutation out of all the trillions of trillions of trillions was the one that we wound up with. In your example, your dealing of the cards was a 100% possibility because you weren't looking for a specific permutation. THAT is truly misleading.
But guess what: There's ALWAYS an argument. I can keep tossing arguments at you as you throw more back at me and we'll be no closer to a logical conclusion. The debate is always there. We can go back and forth in endless debate forever if we want to, Swoosh. Fact vs. fact, statistic vs. statistic, theory vs. theory, but all that would be just for the sake of debate. There is a LOT more at stake here. Swoosh, I'm just going to come out and look like a crazy kook here. I TALK to God, and He TALKS to me. Daily. And you've been all we talk about lately. Swoosh, I know how crazy I sound, but God is sad. He is really, actually SAD. He LOVES you, and He wants more than anything to show you that. The reason I cry when I pray for you is because I feel that God is crying as well. You're a part of His family. How would you feel if your best friend in the whole world decided to completely remove themselves from you?
This isn't about the church or people or creationists or fundamentalists or statistics or arguments or whatever you like, this is about you and God. God is reaching out to you, Swoosh. he really, honestly is. PLEASE don't hide yourself in debate! I've been there more times than I can count, and it doesn't work. Swoosh, I really, honestly care about you. I'll keep telling you that forever if I have to. And God really LOVES you, and He'll be telling you that long after I run out of energy. Please just open up and LISTEN to Him! He's really there, and He hasn't stoped speaking to you since the day you were born, if you'll just LISTEN!
Allan :-)
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Post by tyler on Apr 16, 2007 0:06:49 GMT -5
Why even BOTHER making the rest of the universe, then? I get the feeling that our universe is so large because humans shouldn't be able to explore or even know ALL of anything. The center of the Earth is too far for us to reach, and the edge of the universe is as well. I fail at science, but I think that God knew not to create an environment that humans could completely know. I'd start feeling claustrophobic if He did, lol. When I went to Lincoln, I had only one friend (unless you count Brittany) "Dang, I'm your friend!" lol Is that the right Brittany?
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