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Post by {joy the hideous new girl} on Apr 29, 2007 19:24:47 GMT -5
Sorry, but I'm not going to love someone who'd eternally torture me if I didn't. When people talk about having amazing relationships with God, then I totally understand why they want to convert people. But when you start using scare tactics, I'm outta' there.
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maria
New Member
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Post by maria on Apr 29, 2007 19:27:43 GMT -5
Going to Hell isn't a scare tactic, and those who are saved purely by that or try to get people saved purely by that have problems. Yes, that is something you want to avoid, but God also wants to give you a choice because He wants pure love and desire, and if He forced you to do that, he wouldn't get PURE love, would He?
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Post by {joy the hideous new girl} on Apr 29, 2007 19:39:26 GMT -5
The only reason I was Christian for a long time was because of fear of hell.
I don't think that constitutes pure love. Pure love is love without rewards or consquences. Thd idea being free from earthly desire, one of Christianity's main points, should be sufficient proof of God's power and love. Not threats of hellfire or promises of eternal happiness.
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Post by Swoosh on Apr 29, 2007 20:09:05 GMT -5
Well, I feel horribly flip-floppish defending Christianity, but...
From what I understand of Christian theology, Hell was not created by God as punishment. It was created by Satan as a cruel, sadistic torture chamber. You see, Satan hates God, and we're created in God's image, so he hates us, too - that's his "thing". So, he does all he can to divert you from God and turn you towards sin, because, since the Fall, man has been inherently sinful and therefore his eternal soul cannot live with a perfect God forever. But jesus was sent as a pure sacrifice to take the punishment for OUR sins, so we don't have to spend an eternity under Satan's cruelty. So, really, the existence of Hell was the CAUSE of Salvation, not necesarrily the opposite of it.
But understanding the theology doesn't mean I agree with it - I, personally, do not believe in god, Satan, heaven, hell, eternal souls or that man is inherently sinful. But if the concept of Hell is one of the things keeping you from God, and you truly believe, I hope that helped, Joy.
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Post by {joy the hideous new girl} on Apr 29, 2007 20:50:20 GMT -5
My response to this:
Me! ^_^: well Me! ^_^: i've heard that argument Me! ^_^: and if god is omnipotent, then therfore hell should be no problem Power2TheSwoosh: true, but thats one problem i have with theism all together Me! ^_^: and maybe therefore i have a problem with satan and not god, burt it's still a problem with christianty Power2TheSwoosh: omnipotency makes no logical sense, everything would be prefect and stay that way Me! ^_^: ^yeah exactly, Me! ^_^: christianity still uses scare tactics Power2TheSwoosh: but within the constraints of christian doctrine, which states that an all-knowing god can somehow make linear decisions and change his mind on things, which is just stupid, hell makes sense
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Post by Nina ♥ on Apr 29, 2007 22:49:17 GMT -5
?
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Post by tyler on Apr 30, 2007 1:24:14 GMT -5
I'm so done with this.
I really did not see this coming from you, Ryan. And it's astonishing at just how SWIFTLY you turned from the faith you obviously never had. I'm not really hurt, just bewildered and upset. I can only imagine how God feels.
Know this: just because you don't believe He exists, doesn't me He still isn't there.
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Post by Swoosh on Apr 30, 2007 14:14:37 GMT -5
Tyler, the fact is I haven't given up on Christianity yet... I'm constantly reading works from both sides, as I've said. I really WANT to be able to believe, but I can't blindly follow something with all of these incredibly big doubts I have.
And I'm insulted by the "faith you obviously never had" comment, because, up until this year, I've never doubted the validity of Christianity or the existence of God.
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Post by Nina ♥ on Apr 30, 2007 14:59:44 GMT -5
This pisses me off,
Well us Christians shouldn't shove crap down his throat, and people like Joy or other atheists shouldn't egg him on. Let him decide for himself. Its not good or bad. Ignore it gosh.... Plus stop calling each other liars and evil people and saying stupid rash things!
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Post by Swoosh on Apr 30, 2007 16:10:41 GMT -5
Thank you, Nina...
Honestly, I haven't completely given up on anything yet. I'm still hoping that religion will be able to redeem itself in my mind, so I'm still very open to Christianity. God knows I'm surrounded by it enough each day, so if God exists and cares about me, I know that he'll make sure I get back on track.
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Post by tyler on Apr 30, 2007 16:31:20 GMT -5
And I'm insulted by the "faith you obviously never had" comment, because, up until this year, I've never doubted the validity of Christianity or the existence of God. But if the Holy Spirit was truly dwelling inside you, this remarkable flight from faith would have never happened. I mean, really, when you take a step back and read the last few posts you've made, it's scary. I believe in once-saved-always-saved, but now a new question rises up, is one really saved? That's something a lot of Christians that grow up in the church (such as myself) face when they hit 13 and 14. I knew what I was doing when I asked Jesus into my heart when I was 8, but that was still too young to be able to really grasp what it meant. Then there's the almost obligatory rededication in my teenage years to confirm that faith.
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Post by Swoosh on Apr 30, 2007 16:40:10 GMT -5
I want to believe, and I'm giving Christianity a try - I'm doing a Bible Study at night right now, and I'm trying to be open-minded, praying openly and trying to see if God can work in my life. I'm not a lost cause - from either side.
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Post by theallan on Apr 30, 2007 19:52:43 GMT -5
Save you from hellfire indeed. That was not, is not, and will never be the point of my argument with you, Swoosh. I care about you because GOD cares. The reason I want you to believe so much is because GOD does. You're breaking His heart, Swoosh, and mine is breaking with it.
Okay, Swoosh. I'll be praying for you. I have no intention of giving up on you though. Here in this boards all that we can convey is logic, argument, and reasoning (valid or invalid). It's like trying to prove the existence of a planet you've never seen simply by argument.
Now here comes the surprise:
You're absolutely right, Swoosh. A lot of "God-experiences" can be explained away as emotional moments inspired by beautiful music and persuasive speech. In fact, if you try hard enough you can explain away pretty much anyone's experiences with God.
BUT
The same applies to the rejection of Christianity. Think about it, when you wrap it in enough jargon and inspirational speeches about living for the moment or enjoying life or focusing on humanity, this also generates emotional confusion, especially when it is coupled with arguments about God CONDEMNING us INNOCENT people and being INSENSITIVE to our troubles.
As for your being open to both sides,
Correct me if I'm wrong but that sounds like "court is adjourned" to me.
Now, LOGICALLY, why would God's voice be silent and still? You forget my wager earlier, Swoosh. There is no alternate scenario you can present in which God does anything BETTER than He has. God's goal is to be LOVED, not to persuade us that He exists. If He did use a big, booming voice, He could certainly secure our OBEDIENCE, but our LOVE? That would never work. God wants us to CHOOSE Him, and He has given us the means to do so. God doesn't eternally torture anyone: they eternally torture THEMSELVES. You, as a human being created in God's image, have a RIGHT to CHOOSE your own path, your own actions. God WANTS us to choose Him, but He won't MAKE us.
There's my explanation. But you don't have to believe it. That's the beauty of free will: you can reject my whole explanation, reject everything I've said, wrap it up and twist it with jargon and persuasive speech, I can never MAKE you accept this. I love you and I care about you, but I can't MAKE you believe. And even if I could, I wouldn't. That would just be wrong, wouldn't it?
It's really really easy to reject God, isn't it? As soon as you do you find yourself surrounded by a world of new possibilities; all the arguments you used to hate now make so much sense and you use them indiscriminately. Want me to go down every argument on your list? I will if you don't think it's possible. But argument is a pointless excercise with you. As long as the argument is there, your nature just won't let you "give in" to it. I'll pray for you and I certainly hope that you really do find God in your soul-searching. Just remember: don't look for Him in a building, a feeling, or a philosophy. Look for Him as a PERSON.
And please, while you are free to explain away your own "religious experiences", don't tell me what I'VE experienced. To be quite blunt: you're not me, so don't try to understand what I've seen. Label it my "subconscious" if you wish, but I know the truth. Have you ever had reason to doubt me before? Have I demonstrated the signs of mental instability that lead you to believe that I am prone to believe in pink unicorns because I feel strange? If not, why do you claim that this is what I experience with God? In the same sense that I tell you that I know that Maria Wood is real, I tell you GOD IS REAL.
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Post by {joy the hideous new girl} on Apr 30, 2007 19:59:57 GMT -5
Here's a question for you, Allan: I believe you when you say that you know there's a God...but how do you know that it's the exact same God as in the Bible? It's one thing to have a deep spiritual connection with a deity, but another to believe the words humans wrote about him/her/[insert non-gender-specific singular noun here].
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Post by theallan on Apr 30, 2007 20:07:36 GMT -5
I know that because I START with God. I talk to God and I hear Him talk to me. Over the course of typing one of these posts, for example, He usually has me make several changes to soften my extremely abrasice tone, and I feel guilty because I ignore half of them (hence my abrasiveness). In any case, the fact that the God with whom I maintain contact directs me TO the Bible, sometimes to specific passages that I have never READ before, is sufficient to tell me that the Bible is a fairly accurate portrayal of who God is.
Add to this the fact that archaeology, history, and science continually confirm the details of the Biblical account, and I believe I have a solid foundation. So the reason I believe that God (who is neither He nor Her, we just use "He" because we need to pick SOME pronoun) is the God of the Bible is because He tells me as much Himself. I think it's pretty cool :-)
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