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Post by {joy the hideous new girl} on May 13, 2007 9:01:42 GMT -5
What atheism lacks, however, is a justification for unselfishness. Making the world a slightly better place? =/ Read Pullman, all of you! XD *is a fangirl* And yes, I double Swoosh's question... I've always wrestled with that.
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Post by theallan on May 13, 2007 14:20:25 GMT -5
Clarification: Lacking a justification for unselfishness is BAD. It means that no one has a rational basis to be anything other than selfish.
Okay, back to Theology then :-) It's all based on the concept of man living in what may be called a dangerous world. I won't say that man is inherently incapable of any good whatsoever, but there is something wrong with this fine planet, that much is obvious. As a result, as Paul said, all have sinned. Everyone on earth has actively taken some action of direct rebellion against God. This is what condemns man: his own choice to run away from God. Man dooms himself.
Surprise. Christianity DOESN'T have a monopoly. There are numerous stories of people of other faiths seeking God and FINDING Him. People in remote regions, people of other faiths, people who have never heard of Christianity have communicated with God. But God then directed them to Christ. The reason that I call myself a Christian is because God directs anyone to Christ. I sincerely believe that the sacrifice and resurrection of Christ are the means of salvation for rebellious mankind. However, not very many people really do reach out and try to see God for themselves. Most people, Buddhists, Muslims, pagans, Protestants and Catholics, seek God through some SYSTEM. They try to hear from God THROUGH some institution or religion rather than truly seeking Him. Buddhists follow an 8-fold path, Muslims follow strict rules and guidelines, and Christians spend most of their time talking AT God or ABOUT Him rather than listening to Him and actually having a relationship. The Bible itself says that God is "a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him."
Here's what the whole passage says. It's really cool and really applies here because it's talking about the faith of those before the coming of Christ. If you'll look on the list you'll see Jews, Gentiles, men, and women, all represented. Here it is:
So I certainly don't think that Christianity has any sort of monopoly on anything. We call ourselves Christians because it identifies us. Christ is the deciding factor, and God is there to point anyone who seeks Him to Christ. But God has made it OUR responsibility to take the message to those seekers.
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maria
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Post by maria on May 13, 2007 17:13:47 GMT -5
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think Christianity is the only "religion" that doesn't require "earning points" to get to heaven or some great end destination, instead it has God's GRACE that allows us to go to heaven. I thought that was interesting. ...has anyone else noticed the really weird ads at the top of the page in this thread?
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Post by tyler on May 13, 2007 21:11:24 GMT -5
You know, I might not really exist. This could be Swoosh on a different profile, posting as my alter ego: "Tyler." I guess you'll all have to see it to believe it in July, when I come to visit. Anyways, Allan, your most recent explanation was excellent, and it put things in clearer light for me.
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Post by Nina ♥ on May 13, 2007 23:17:57 GMT -5
XDDDDDD
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Post by Swoosh on Sept 8, 2007 17:05:37 GMT -5
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maria
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Post by maria on Sept 17, 2007 22:39:54 GMT -5
What atheism lacks, however, is a justification for unselfishness. Making the world a slightly better place? =/ Okay, this is one of those things were it sounds really mean and awful, but what's the point to making anything a "better place" if there is no god? Think about it! Do you really have the right to make people do anything if life is pointless? And if you disagree, maybe it's because God DESIGNED us that way. I think that our sense of right and wrong is something God gave us. I know it sounds awful, but you really have no way to back up that life can't be totally selfish and wasteful unless you believe there is a God. Well, you CAN believe it, but you'd have no reason to unless there is a God.
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Post by {joy the hideous new girl} on Sept 18, 2007 6:09:45 GMT -5
NO COMPREHENDE.
I really don't understand what you're trying to say. If you don't believe in a god, wouldn't you think it's up to us to fix the world? If there's nothing after life, shouldn't we make this life the best it can be? We should strive to be good regardless of what a god may or may not think.
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Post by Swoosh on Sept 18, 2007 6:14:07 GMT -5
Yeah... I agree with Joy.
Wow, I'm getting lazy. :-p
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Post by {joy the hideous new girl} on Sept 18, 2007 9:30:03 GMT -5
ha... don't worry, that's exactly what I do in the evolution thread.
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maria
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Post by maria on Sept 19, 2007 14:23:56 GMT -5
NO COMPREHENDE. I really don't understand what you're trying to say. If you don't believe in a god, wouldn't you think it's up to us to fix the world? If there's nothing after life, shouldn't we make this life the best it can be? We should strive to be good regardless of what a god may or may not think. No, because if there is no God, why should I strive to make the world a better place if I want to live my life the way I want to? If there is no God, there is no sin, and without sin, I can lie, cheat, and do whatever I want, I dont have to care whether or not you think it's okay, because there is no sin with no God. And the fact that you think we SHOULD do good and that you have a DESIRE for somethign greater should prove there is a God!
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Post by {joy the hideous new girl} on Sept 19, 2007 17:43:51 GMT -5
Just because there's no god doesn't mean that there's no right and wrong...
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Post by tyler on Sept 19, 2007 20:16:43 GMT -5
But who's to decide what's right and wrong? Just because you think something is wrong doesn't mean I do, and nor do I have to respect that.
At least with God, a Holy creator far greater than us, we find the measure of right and wrong from someone worthy to decide and judge.
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Post by {joy the hideous new girl} on Sept 19, 2007 20:37:23 GMT -5
*sigh* Morals are really not as arbitrary as people make them out to be. Sure, people might have differing senses of right and wrong, but as long as they do what they think is right (and aren't crazy Hitler people), there should be no problem. All major religions (except for like, Satanism, but that's more of a philosophy than anything) have a basic concept of right and wrong: do unto to others as you would have them do unto you, harm none and do what thou wilt, etc.
What I'm trying to say is that everyone has a conscience, and if they follow that, they don't need a religion. In fact, it might be beneficial, because there would be no religious radicals, anti-gay violence, Jihads, crazy stuff like that. I'm not against religion as a concept, but I'm against stupid people who use their religion to do idiotic stuff.
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Post by Swoosh on Sept 19, 2007 21:15:05 GMT -5
I agree with Joy. I understand what you're saying, Maria and Tyler, and don't think I haven't thought about this myself. But like Joy said, moralso aren't as "set" as some would like to believe, and I think your view on morals is - although I fear using this word - a tad small-minded.
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